Interesting discussion! I agree that the practice of factory farming is not in accordance with Nature and that those practicing Stoicism or otherwise should take these un-virtuous practices into consideration when consuming animal products. I'm grateful to you both for a good-faith dialogue on the matter!
There's a risk that we think that our ancient Stoics must have been against whatever we're against, and for whatever we're for. And I tend to agree with Massimo here. The ancient Stoics grew up in a sacrifice culture, at every religious and social festival, and the sacrifices were of farm animals, and there was no particular sense of 'humane slaughter.' The Roman ones grew up in a culture in which animals were killed wholesale in the arena, along with humans. Now intellectuals had varying responses to the arena (we know Marcus didn't enjoy it), but it was the national 'sport.' There are wonderful images of loved animals from ancient culture (e.g. Odysseus's dog Argos), but the kind treatment of animals was not, I'm sad to say, a 'thing' in Greco-Roman culture.
I agree that the ancient Stoics would regard unjust killing as unvirtuous. But since they did not think animals to be rational and therefore worthy of notice, I think there is serious doubt they would consider the killing of animals, no matter the circumstances, "unjust."
Also, I think it is tendentious to characterize modern Stoics as "zealous" and our alleged needs as "ridiculous." Ancient Stoicism is an incredibly valuable source of inspiration and ethical insights. But on a number of things, especially in terms of their science and metaphysics, the ancient Stoics were plain wrong, and this needs to be acknowledged. Otherwise we risk turning Stoicism from a dynamic philosophy into a stagnant religion.
I have soooo many thoughts on this topic, as it’s been an interest of mine for some time. None of which diverge from your disgust at factory farming, or any other kind, really. Having grown up around farms, I’ve seen my fair share of how these animals are casually mistreated, and if not for strict government regulations, would be worse still. To your point, though, I’m not well-versed enough in ancient Stoicism to say if they would or wouldn’t approve of it. I would *hope* they wouldn’t, but if we were to bring any of them back to life to comment on 2023, presumably they’d have so much to be shocked to their sandals by that the meat and dairy industries would have to wait their turn.
Yes this is why I choose to eat halal even if I am not religious. Halal has a scientific spiritual meaning. Halal chicken or halal beef. Means the animal did not suffer but in the name of god you slice it’s throat. Make a one time death with no suffering. I consider halal a very stoic way of eating
Tanner's asks what ancient Stoics would think of modern factory farming. Ancient sporting and religious treatment of animals tell us nothing about ancient Stoic attitudes to farming animals for food. There is no historically comparative moral problem to consider as this question is entirely abstract and new. Tanner's arguments from a reverence for Nature are therefore well reasoned and relevant to the specific question he poses.
Would The Ancient Stoics Have Been Against Mistreatment of Animals?
Interesting discussion! I agree that the practice of factory farming is not in accordance with Nature and that those practicing Stoicism or otherwise should take these un-virtuous practices into consideration when consuming animal products. I'm grateful to you both for a good-faith dialogue on the matter!
Beautifully argued.
There's a risk that we think that our ancient Stoics must have been against whatever we're against, and for whatever we're for. And I tend to agree with Massimo here. The ancient Stoics grew up in a sacrifice culture, at every religious and social festival, and the sacrifices were of farm animals, and there was no particular sense of 'humane slaughter.' The Roman ones grew up in a culture in which animals were killed wholesale in the arena, along with humans. Now intellectuals had varying responses to the arena (we know Marcus didn't enjoy it), but it was the national 'sport.' There are wonderful images of loved animals from ancient culture (e.g. Odysseus's dog Argos), but the kind treatment of animals was not, I'm sad to say, a 'thing' in Greco-Roman culture.
I agree that the ancient Stoics would regard unjust killing as unvirtuous. But since they did not think animals to be rational and therefore worthy of notice, I think there is serious doubt they would consider the killing of animals, no matter the circumstances, "unjust."
Also, I think it is tendentious to characterize modern Stoics as "zealous" and our alleged needs as "ridiculous." Ancient Stoicism is an incredibly valuable source of inspiration and ethical insights. But on a number of things, especially in terms of their science and metaphysics, the ancient Stoics were plain wrong, and this needs to be acknowledged. Otherwise we risk turning Stoicism from a dynamic philosophy into a stagnant religion.
I have soooo many thoughts on this topic, as it’s been an interest of mine for some time. None of which diverge from your disgust at factory farming, or any other kind, really. Having grown up around farms, I’ve seen my fair share of how these animals are casually mistreated, and if not for strict government regulations, would be worse still. To your point, though, I’m not well-versed enough in ancient Stoicism to say if they would or wouldn’t approve of it. I would *hope* they wouldn’t, but if we were to bring any of them back to life to comment on 2023, presumably they’d have so much to be shocked to their sandals by that the meat and dairy industries would have to wait their turn.
Yes this is why I choose to eat halal even if I am not religious. Halal has a scientific spiritual meaning. Halal chicken or halal beef. Means the animal did not suffer but in the name of god you slice it’s throat. Make a one time death with no suffering. I consider halal a very stoic way of eating
Tanner's asks what ancient Stoics would think of modern factory farming. Ancient sporting and religious treatment of animals tell us nothing about ancient Stoic attitudes to farming animals for food. There is no historically comparative moral problem to consider as this question is entirely abstract and new. Tanner's arguments from a reverence for Nature are therefore well reasoned and relevant to the specific question he poses.